Speeding.

"Leon711" (leon711) 03/24/2015 at 07:30 • Filed to: Cops, Speeding

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Having just read the comments on the FP article about John Oliver and his fuck barrel I decided to share with you the grounds for prosecution regarding speeding in the UK. Let me know how where you live compares.

First things first. If you are speeding in the UK, you don't automatically get a ticket. The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has issued speed enforcement policy guidance, which suggests that enforcement will normally occur when a driver exceeds the speed limit by a particular margin. This is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph. It also sets guidelines for when it would not be appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice but to issue a court summons instead (see below). Note that these are guidelines and that a police officer has discretion to act outside of them providing he acts fairly, consistently and proportionately.

Speed limit: 20 mph

ACPO charging threshold: 24 mph

Summons: 35 mph

Speed limit: 30 mph

ACPO charging threshold: 35 mph

Summons: 50 mph

Speed limit: 40 mph

ACPO charging threshold: 46 mph

Summons: 66 mph

Speed limit: 50 mph

ACPO charging threshold: 57 mph

Summons: 76 mph

Speed limit: 60 mph

ACPO charging threshold: 68 mph

Summons: 86 mph

Speed limit: 70 mph

ACPO charging threshold: 79 mph

Summons: 96 mph

So I can creep over the limit without concern. it is however worth noting that in the UK it is not cops on the side of the road that catch you most, it's cameras. The cameras are usually sign posted and covered in a yellow reflective coating so if you get caught by one you are just unlucky but still people do caught, every day. Recently other less overt types of camera have appeared on motorways and are causing a fuss in the media as more and more inattentive drivers are caught breaking the law.

Another breed of camera used to enforce speeds are the average speed cameras that time you point to point and calculate your average speed. These are used typically when lengthy road work is being undertaken to protect workers (though the limit is fixed even when no workers are present. I believe these adhere to the ACPO thresholds but I've never been caught by one, so I don't know.

The issue with enforcement by camera is that there is no discretion involved, the camera never cuts you a break. You can appeal but you probably can't get out of it. To date, I've never been prosecuted for a motoring offence but I have had run ins with the police, One of these was regarding my speed. One rainy night, I had just dropped a friend home from the pub and was pulling out on to a main road as I normally would (not slowly, but not like a maniac) and continue down this 30mph road at about 30-35. I look in my rearview and see some headlights in the distance approaching rapidly, they get reasonably close then flick on the blue lights. I pull over quickly and safely, I was told I exited a corner too quickly and sped away at "over 40", as I was out at night a young man and they thought I was driving poorly, the next question was "where have you come from?" to which I replied "the pub". They quickly produced a breathalyser and I provided a breath test and I made small talk with them (two ladies) and the result came back as a zero (I'm practically tee total anyway) and I was allowed on my way with no ticket. Discretion is nice because if you ain't an ass you'll get cut a break.

If you get a ticket you will not only receive a fine, but also penalty points on your licence. in the UK a driver is permitted to accrue 12 points on their licence before losing it for a period of time (begins with a six month ban) and the severity of speeding offences dictate how many points are given. for low level speeding offences it is 3 points with a £100 fine, if you are a first time offender you also have the option to forgo the points and pay a similar amount to go to a police run "speed awareness course" this is appealing as the points will increase your insurance premiums. As speed increases points and fines do too up to a maximum of 6 points and £2500. If you don't pay the fine, you'll go to court and be made to pay, if it's difficult for you to pay the court will work out a payment plan with you.

Points are also given if your tires are defective or you don't have insurance. So if say for example you have a bald tyre, no insurance and get pulled over doing 40 in a 30, you could be banned from driving for six months. Another fact that might surprise you is that not all police cars in the the UK carry speed recording equipment, A local area car will likely be a low powered hatch and it isn't deemed necessary for them to carry speed equipment and it is typically reserved for traffic cars like Jags, BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Skodas.

So, I ask how does this compare to your locale?

Gonemad > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 07:46

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We have lots and lots of non-ABS skid marks before all traffic cameras, so it's easy to tell where they are, at least the permanent ones. They are not painted bright yellow, and in fact, they are made the most inconspicuous as possible, even hidden inside those large yellow drums. This one is disguised as a side road pin. Look at the unmarked police van. So, it's a "don't get caught" policy.

The full source of this picture is public:

h t t p : // revistaautoesporte.globo.com/Revista/Autoesporte/foto/0,,16910418,00.jpg

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 07:47

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The worst around here is a red light camera pointing at a yellow box junction. So if you think the exit is clearing but it isnt and you get stuck in the yellow box, prepare for two weeks of anxiety over whether a fine is coming or not.

thebigbossyboss > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 07:49

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No photo radar here :)

Leon711 > thebigbossyboss 03/24/2015 at 07:50

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just cops in cars?

thebigbossyboss > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 07:53

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Yup.

Leon711 > thebigbossyboss 03/24/2015 at 07:55

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living the dream!

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 07:57

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Wow, that's an interesting read, thanks for the write up.

What you described is very similar to how things work here in the US, but each state has it's own laws regarding motor vehicle operation, so the penalties, as well as degree of leniency vary from state to state.

Also interesting, not all states have reciprocity regarding penalties for traffic violations, so if you get a ticket in a different state, the points may not carry over.

thebigbossyboss > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 07:57

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Naw. Max fine for speeding here is $CAD 10K.

The dream is BC. Cheap govt insurance, left lane hog rules, and they just upped the speed limits on 1300 kms of rural highways.

Here in Ontario we have a certain highway, it's called the 401 and is the main "drag" in the province if you will. The speed limit is officially 100 km/h (62 mph) but everyone speeds.

"Back in Ontario, I started thinking about the logic of speed enforcement. Cruising on Hwy 401, I realized that the vast majority of traffic was travelling well above the 100 km/h limit; the median speed appeared to be in the 120 km/h range.

As a test, I set my cruise control for 100 and travelled from Toronto to Windsor, a distance of just under 400 km. In my four-hour trip, I was passed by hundreds of cars, including several OPP cruisers – almost no one obeyed the posted limit, including the police."

I have been doing 120 on that highway only to have a cop blast by me going 150 km/h. lol.

Leon711 > Snuze: Needs another Swede 03/24/2015 at 07:58

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Thanks man, I did it in some down time at work this morning.

450X_FTW > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 07:59

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This is normally 10 per cent over the speed limit plus 2 mph

That would mean people and police would need to know how to do basic mental math in the US. Doubtful that more than 5% of the driving population can do this type of thinking

Leon711 > thebigbossyboss 03/24/2015 at 07:59

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To be fair to the UK laws, I've never been caught speeding so it's not like it's a police state here.

Leon711 > 450X_FTW 03/24/2015 at 08:00

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The only time I really speed is when the limit is 70, I make sure to not exceed 77 to be safe.

davedave1111 > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 08:09

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"The issue with enforcement by camera is that there is no discretion involved, the camera never cuts you a break."

That's not quite true, because the cameras are monitored by people who do have some discretion. Discretion to get it wrong, in fact, at which point the photographic/video evidence that you didn't in fact commit the offence you're accused of comes in very handy.

Leon711 > davedave1111 03/24/2015 at 08:12

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Yes! I should have added that you can request photo/video evidence too! my fiances dad drive a sign written car and received a fine in the post so he asked for a pic and sent one of his distinctive car back, they dropped it.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 08:18

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In my locale, the cops make it up as they go along because they know that their word is viewed as absolute truth, the guidance issued by the city/county/state is to generate as much revenue as possible, and there are entirely too many of them. It was kind of surprising and refreshing to me when I went to Europe a few years ago. I don't think I saw a single speed trap, there were very few cops relative to here, and they were all very approachable and friendly.

Shady Balkan Subject, Drives an Alfa > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 08:18

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Here in Bulgaria the laws are solid, but how they are enforced are chaning literally every month. Here speeding is even if you do 1km/h more than the limit, but speed cameras are set to 10km/h over the limit, which is nice. On the other hand radars/cameras in police cars are set to around 5km/h over the limit, but till this month the cop must stop you and write you a ticket, now as with speed cameras you get an electronic ticket. For a lot of time it was discussed to introduce average speed cameras, but for now they are not doing it.

Also if there are more than two other cars in the picture you are getting out of the fine. At least we don't have the absolutely stupid and lacking any objectivity method of US cops that can ticket you for speeding, just by seeing you speed. Even if you drive with 20km/h over the limit and they are right behing you, they can't do anything. They can stop you and must find something else to write you a ticket. So they are now putting radars in unmarked ones that will drive around, but will need to stop you after finding your speed.

Leon711 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 03/24/2015 at 08:20

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in my limited exchanges with police as long as I was polite, they were polite.

Leon711 > Shady Balkan Subject, Drives an Alfa 03/24/2015 at 08:22

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Just like us then, they need radar or video evidence for a ticket.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 08:23

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Yeah, there's just a completely different vibe there amongst the police. There was a more human element to it and I got the impression that they were there to actually help people.

Leon711 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 03/24/2015 at 08:25

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I went to the US for the first time last year and found many officials being it Police, TSA etc. they just weren't as friendly.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 08:27

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In the US, it's practically viewed as a cost of driving.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 08:29

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Similar system in Ontario, but the "grace period" is determined more by the impossibility of pulling everybody over, and the fact that it's often not worth their time.

- Unless you are 16+kph over, there are no points and it is a ~50$ fine. You won't get pulled unless they are having a slow month.

- The limits are so low that the courts are packed. Therefore, most of the time if you were ticketed for less than 20% over, it'll get thrown out.

- 80% of people on a 100kph highway are doing 120kph. of the remaining 20%, 15% are 120-145kph.

- On maindrag city streets, most people are doing ~15 over.

davedave1111 > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 08:31

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Heh, that's fun. Years ago I got a ticket from Haringey coucil - slogan: Officially the Worst Council in the UK - accusing me of driving in a bus lane. Of course I asked to see the video footage, so they sent it to me. It was my car, I was driving, but all it showed was me driving quietly and safely down the regular-traffic lane, stopping at a red light, and then turning off when the light changed.

The fucks insisted on going all the way to a tribunal rather than admit they'd made a mistake. Of course they lost, but presumably many people wouldn't bother with the whole thing and would just pay up.

Leon711 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 03/24/2015 at 08:31

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I can't understand why it's different here in terms of generating revenue. People accuse speed cameras of being for revenue purposes but they are only installed in areas where many accidents occur and are yellow, and sign posted. Police don't hound you with fines and tickets they would prefer to give you a good talking to and help change your behaviour, in the US they just want your money it seems.

Leon711 > davedave1111 03/24/2015 at 08:33

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A mate's dad (who is a cabbie) got a fine from Brighton and Hove city council for parking his cab at a taxi rank. Again it was dropped.

buford-t-justice > thebigbossyboss 03/24/2015 at 08:49

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But no radar detectors :(

buford-t-justice > thebigbossyboss 03/24/2015 at 08:50

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The hortons must of brewed a fresh pot

buford-t-justice > thebigbossyboss 03/24/2015 at 08:53

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and I just read this

http://www.recorder.ca/2015/03/23/pol…

thebigbossyboss > buford-t-justice 03/24/2015 at 08:59

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Probably do not go quite that fast.

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 09:02

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We have a pretty similar system here in South Carolina, just without the speed cameras. Speed cameras have been outlawed in the state after too many of our local politicians got caught by them, hahaha. The officers obviously have the laws that they go by, but it really is the up to the officer's discretion as to what, if anything you get written for. I've gotten many a warning by just doing everything to make the officer feel safe and in control of the situation. Don't make the officer nervous or give them any reason for concern and you wont ever have any issues.

The last time I got stopped, I was doing about 10/15 over in a bright red Mercedes C250 Sport Coupe (it had the AMG Sport Package with the AMG suede bucket seats, read seat belts, AMG wheels... man that was a nice car), so I stood out like sore thumb. The deputy sheriff was traveling in the opposite direction, but still got me on radar, made a u-turn and floored it to try and catch up to us. As I knew a stop was inevitable, I went ahead and pulled over before he had caught up or turned his lights on. I made sure to pull a good ways off the road and pointed the nose of the car outwards, giving the deputy full view on the occupants and interior of the vehicle when he approached. I rolled down the window, shut the car off, and placed my hands on the steering wheel. I had a nice chat with the officer, explained I was working for a car dealership and going to pick up a dealer trade at a dealership in another town about an hour and half away and was on a very tight schedule to get it done, but that it was no excuse for exceeding the speed limit and apologized. The officer thank me for complying and making everything easy for him and let me off with a warning.

This pretty much how every traffic stop I've ever had has gone and I've only ever gotten one speeding ticket, but that officer was and jerk. I got stopped working as a pizza delivery driver in the pouring rain in a neighborhood known for robberies, but that's a story for another day.

jariten1781 > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 10:35

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I currently live in Virginia. Lots on the internet about our high level penalties for 'reckless driving' which has a relatively low threshold. I've never had an issue with it since I don't go 15 mph over...so it's kinda meh for me.

Our county used to have speed and stoplight cameras, but they've all been removed. The transportation commissioner (or whatever his title is) reviewed the stats over a 5ish year period and found no appreciable decrease in violations (in fact it was an increase) and no appreciable increase in safety. We still have them in a couple independently administered localities in the county, but I avoid those anyway since they're kinda NIMBY places I don't like to frequent anyway.

I work in DC. They have speed, stoplight, and even stop sign cameras. I haven't been tagged yet for anything so I assume they've got an appropriately set margin for normal driving. I don't change my driving habits because they're around. Lots of people get enraged by them though.

We have a points system. I don't know how it works since since I've never gotten a point in 17 years of driving. Been pulled over a few times but being decently groomed, decently dressed, and polite I've always been given a pass. Also, being a veteran probably helps.

Now, I grew up in Oklahoma in a time prior to speed cameras. There they had (have?) a totally different system. There are guidelines for number of tickets in X amount of years that lead to drivers licence restrictions/revocation, however, it really was at the court's discretion. Then, being young and dumb, I got tickets all the time even when doing nothing untoward (I recieved one once for 'touching the center line' and another for 'failure to pull over' even though I literally hadn't even been on the road for half a mile). I chalk that up to, wanton disregard for the posted limit, driving an obnoxiously loud car with limo tint, dressing like an idiot (aka a teenager), always being unkempt and unshaven, and being belligerent with the officers when I was pulled over. More than once I had to go in front of the judge with my license on the line and luckily they cut me some slack. At the time I was perpetually pissed off at the system, but in retrospect I didn't really do myself any favors.

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 10:37

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Oh, and as for the cars, the equipment changes from department to department. My local City PD have only 10 or so cars outfitted radar, but that's because they focus more on the neighborhood patrol. And they run quite a mixture of vehicles, everything: Ford Crown Vics, For Police Interceptors, and Chevy Impalas as regular patrol vehicles. The few traffic vehicles and a mixture of Dodge Chargers, Chevy Caprices, and one Ford Police Interceptor. The Forensics Unit runs civilian Ford Explorers. The detectives have a mixture of Ford Crown Vics, Ford Fusions, and Chevy Impalas. The command staff uses a mixture of Ford Crown Vics, Ford Police Interceptor Utilities (Explorers), and Chevy Tahoes. And then our SWAT team has two HMMWV's (Humvee's) from the '90s that barely get touched and a completely stealthy but fully armored Mercedes Sprinter van.

Compare that to the local County Sheriff's Office, where they run Ford Crown Vics, Chevy Tahoes, and Chevy Caprices, and they're all equipped with radar.

Leon711 > Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy 03/24/2015 at 10:58

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My local police force, Sussex police have a variety, traffic is typically Audi A4 and A6, BMW 3 and 5 series wagons and X5's, patrol is Ford Mondeo and Focus, rural stuff is Defenders and Discovery and then there is the extensive range of unmarked cars from Golf R, Audi s3, focus st to audi a6.

and they had some promotional ones over the years.

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 12:07

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Nice! I love that unmarked Audi! In South Carolina, we've had quite a few promotional vehicles as well as some nice muscle cars for traffic enforcement and high-speed chases.

My local PD in Charleston has had Camaros and Mustangs in the past.

And then the South Carolina Highway Patrol has had some awesome promotional and patrol vehicles over the years including a BMW 540i M-Sport and an M5 (both E34s), a Dodge Viper (promotional car, never saw road duty), a few Mustang GTs, lots of Camaros (both marked and unmarked, and now the standard issue Dodge Charger. This is going to be a little pic heavy, sorry, lol.

Hey, y'all, watch this! > Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy 03/24/2015 at 12:28

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Everyone goes over the limit in SC, even the cops. We're a speedy state.

Except Spartanburg County. They'll stop you for going like 5 over.

Camshaft Chris: Skyline/McLaren/Porsche Fanboy > Hey, y'all, watch this! 03/24/2015 at 13:17

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Spartanburg County isn't nearly as bad as Ridgeland PD. They extended their town limits just to include a section of I95. They have their cars all over that section and even tried to set up a speed camera, but that got banned by the state congress. I do love their new '14 Dodge Charger and '15 Chevy Tahoe though (as long as they're not in my rearview mirror). Those are hot rides!

Dusty Ventures > Leon711 03/24/2015 at 13:38

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I've had the opposite experience with U.S. cops, but I seem to be outside the norm. I've been pulled over three times for speeding and was only given one ticket. I was also passenger in a pullover last month (78 in a 55) and he not only got just a verbal warning but the cell phone number of the local tire dealer (he was speeding so we could get to a tire shop in the next town before it closed).